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Post by ForsakenOne on Mar 3, 2004 16:26:51 GMT -5
and there probably wouldnt be a bloodly Middle Earth if Gurthang hadn't been made. Turin pwns Ellendil questionlessly. nono Turin is the greatest man to ever live. Ye that even means you Numenoreons. He is a legend, Elendil..hes just an old bloody cack. Hes like the Denethor of the Second age. Turin is the greatest hero ever no question
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Post by NuklearPanda on Mar 3, 2004 16:33:30 GMT -5
The only reason why u want 2 stop is because u know u r getting hit down and getting out of arguments. Nuklear!! Answer in which book did u read about the last battle??! The sword gurthang is the greatest of all time and also is the hero that fought with it. Narsil only did a tiny thing on Sauron but it was lucky and got all cred! Ask Orolin, he read it in some book by Tolkien or his son.
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Post by narsilLOTR on Mar 3, 2004 18:40:28 GMT -5
....well I dont doubt about Turin is a great warrior...maybe greatest ever if you like, but I make a clearcut difference between a warrior and a hero. I mean, a hero in arda is someone who acomplished great actions for good, who fought evil back and won over it. well sure, turin did that, but he also killed his best friend, he is responsible for many others death and he raped his own sister...not so glorious.
next, why woudlnt middle earth exist without Gurthang....the valar had the power of this and controled it, it wasnt their last hope as far as I know, and some of them were and are strong enough to take morgoth alone in duel. so they did first time they won over him. and lets not forget, all that happens happens exactly like iluvatar planned it, he knows what comes, if a man dies, he doesnt come to the halls of mandos like the elves but somewhere else, where eru can use them for further plan (maybe tolkien wanted to simulate real world with this? after middle earth´s end the men, who are all dead, are reborn in a new world that is our real one? but I leave the context so back to our swords!)
About who is the greater man, no doubt Elendil wins, he is the one that saved the Nùmenorian people from their end, without him, the race of men would be poor and wild, under sauron´s control! he created the nations of arnor and gondor, and he is the ancestor of all kings that are to come, and even of the son of aragorn....
Now, im telling you that sometimes its not only the pure actions of something that count (and narsil acomplished many great actions also). The blade of narsil is the symbols of sauron´s falling, it gave men hope during all the 3rd age long. Gurthang has no role later on, it was only in 1st age, but narsil, made in first age, still exists in the 3rd as the symbol of hope for all mankind. even sauron, the dark lord himself, feared this sword and it made him lose as he focused all his evil will on it!
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Post by ForsakenOne on Mar 4, 2004 12:50:18 GMT -5
sorry what did Narsil do in the first age? Sat in a smithy and got dusty?
and the reason there wouldnt be a middle earth is cos several events wouldnt have happened if Glaurung hadnt died.. The Nauglimer wouldnt have been refound. Doriath wouldnt have been destroyed as the Dwarfs did this over the Nauglimer. There wouldnt have been an Encampment for the Mouths of sirion for Earendil to live. Therefore Earendil wouldve stayed in Gondolin or Doriath probably and wouldnt sail to the west.
Narsil is a symbol for men..? Well Turin is THE symbol for men Tell me which Valar alone could destroy all of Angbands army...Winged Dragons, Balrogs, millions of Orcs, Trolls.. need i go on. and btw the Valar never came at the end. The host of Valinor was led by Eonwe for a reason.
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Post by narsilLOTR on Mar 4, 2004 18:09:21 GMT -5
Well a symbol doesnt messure of its acts, but just by how its known and how often people talk of it, and in lotr, tell me ONE quotation of the sword Gurtang, it was forgotten, no one knows it even existed. In battle, aragorn with his mighty sword has like an aura around him which gives all hope, and why did they keep the rests of narsil? as it gives hope for all men.
anyways, why do I still answer to this, you wont convince me and i see neither will I convince you....I repeat thats sensless
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kula
Full Member
I am the curse that makes noldors blood burning,Revenge for the innocent victims of teleri will come
Posts: 148
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Post by kula on Mar 5, 2004 9:12:38 GMT -5
U talk that narsil was a symbol.
I would say gurthang was a bigger symbol with Turin for men. Beleriand is doomed for elves and then 1 MAN of the human kind Stops evil with his sword. When all good falls ONE MAN keep the good spirit up, isn't that a symbol?. And u say that Aragorn held narsil like an aura. There were so much rumours about Gurthang that the evil forces didn't even did attacks where the black sowrd had been seen. And in the fight outside naragothround the troops of good all gatherd round the black sword and Turin. Turin was not chosen to king, he didn't have to fight but he did it anyway for good and revenge.
Elendil was a chosen kng and had 2 fight that's not a true hero.
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Post by alex1560 on Mar 5, 2004 11:20:10 GMT -5
okay heres my opinion. Gurthang was much greater than Narsil but i only got on thing about Gurthang killing Glaurung (who by the way was cooler than Turin) Turin killed Glaurung while Glaurung was sleeping before Turin was dazed by Glaurung and was under his bidding for a couple of minutes. Glaurung in his last sweep nearly killed Turin. But Glaurung and Sauron were of equal command in Morgoths mind. Sauron didnt do much besides take Minas Tirith (no not the one in LOTR) but Glaurung sacked a whole underground civilizations basically by himself while Sauron was a coward and hid behind the curtains. Also unlike the movie Sauron in the book had to wrestle with Gil-Galad and Elendil he didnt go and swipe everyone away with his mace. Narsil just happened to be there so he cut it off.
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Post by ForsakenOne on Mar 5, 2004 11:58:53 GMT -5
Dragons dont sleep u nonce. [glow=red,2,300]Remember Smaug in the Hobbit?[/glow]
if he was sleeping how did he kill Hunthor in the battle by chucking a boulder down on him from a cliff when Turin was right with Hunthor..?
and Glaurung didnt nearly kill Turin he knocked him out with an evil glare.
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Post by ForsakenOne on Mar 5, 2004 12:01:45 GMT -5
Ye but Turin wasnt was he? and Tell me one place where Narsil is mentioned in Silmarillion. ye exactly.
Turin is mentioned in both Fellowship of the Ring and the Two Towers.
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Post by narsilLOTR on Mar 5, 2004 19:14:51 GMT -5
narsil´s time came at second age so of course it cant be mentioned in books which action takes place BEFORE this time...it existed though his great time was still to come. And yes turins mentioned, not gurthang....
and hey, all you say is cool about turin, but actually hes a loser....he started many things but never got it to an end...defended one place, and wasnt there in right moment...all the countries he defended were razed, even during his lifetime.
and after turin, the bearer of gurthang died, it wasnt in any fight (only the thing with morgoth but thats not in middle earth) that shows gurthang was mostly so "known" cos of its bearer, turin.
the sword of narsil was a legend throughout the ages, first with elendil, then kept all this time by the dunedain (and elrond) in the north.
you might say Im out of arguments, even if thats not true, and actually no one is saying many more things since some posts, all was said, all arguments spoken, though no one accepts the other ones ideas, so its senseless...
how about coming to an end? everyone has his own opinion, I say I prefer narsil, you say you prefer gurthang, end of discussion!
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Post by MMG_God on Apr 5, 2004 16:36:53 GMT -5
No not end yet i wanna get into the discussion now wit another summary w00t. Narsil: THE GOOD -Wielded by Elendil, a king of men, exile of numenor -Cut the ring off of an already defeated Sauron, imo its almost like whats the point? I think Isilidur could have just pulled it off easy enough, narsil wasnt really needed -Fought in many great battles slaying countless orcs -Feared by Orcs -Later Reforged to Anduril -Symbol of Good to men THE BAD -Not Anduril, just its base Gurthang: THE GOOD -Wielded by Turin, argueably the great warrior of the human race ever along with hurin -Cursed...oooo...scary -Slew Beleg (this can be considered a plus when it goes along with the curse, i think this ultimately makes the sword cooler, more well known, and help get its cursed reputation) -Slew Glaurung, the father of dragons and one of the mightiest creatures under melkors command, id say second only to Melkor, Gothmog, and possibly Ancalagon -Could talk!!! i wanna talk to a sword, i wonder what itd say -Killed its master, reinforces the cursed element -Slew countless orcs -Feared by orcs, as well as men and elves it would seem -Symbol to Men during the 1st age, hence all the talk about the black sword of nargothrond which was also turins nickname THE BAD -Well it is cursed but thats what makes it cool and gains its reputation -Betrays its masters, again goes along with that whole cursed thing -Kind of a Symbol of evil, once again back to the curse So imo Gurthang definately wins this, and also it seems this is the main opinion of every1 else as right now the score is 14 to 7 in favor of gurthang w00t. May have left some things out......so post it if u know anything else.
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Post by narsilLOTR on Apr 6, 2004 6:59:38 GMT -5
this discussion was over and there is still no point in going on with it, for we will never agree. Again I repeat a stubborn list of things something did cant be done, for these things are not equal in what they are. Another thing is, if you save the world, its not the size of the threat that messures of the valor of this action.
Lets say an asteroid is going to crash on the world in 2010, and some guy saves the world by destroying it...he saved the world obviously. then in 2011, 100 asteroids come (again) and will put an end to human race, and another guy saves the world by destroying these rocks. The world is saved again. Now you cant judge these 2 men, none of them was greater then the other one, though one pwned 100 asteroids while the first "just" has one in his list. if one of these 2 hadnt existed, the world was doomed, no matter of how many things they did.
You see, its not really who they fought that counts, its what was the result of it. Without Gurthang, well the world would have fallen faster (maybe), thats all. Without narsil, well Elendil and the gang wouldnt have won over the orcs (maybe) and reached mount doom, and Elendil & Gil-Galad would not have won over Sauron, the cuting the ring from his finger wasnt the great action actually, but the fact that these 2 kings duelled sauron and won even if they paid it with their life.
Last thing, on your list you added things for Gurthang that are turned against good, I mean killing its master, ok it makes the curse stronger, but it doesnt help the free people in any matter.
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Post by MMG_God on Apr 6, 2004 20:50:34 GMT -5
Or does it!??!?!?!? muahahhaha
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Post by narsilLOTR on May 21, 2004 9:22:15 GMT -5
hm lets see....a warrior that could kill 99999 orcs in next battle...dead...what for? nothing...only a dumb sword....
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